Conflit avec proprietaire

Leen · #1 14-07-2010 09:16:42

Bonjour,

Je suis desolée par avance, mais pour ne pas faire bcp de fauts en français, j'écrirais en angle.

Please help me with an advice what I still can do or how I can help other people not to get in a same situation as myself.
Yesterday I had a final expertise in the appartment where I lived 4 years. I was a very good tenant, always paied my rent in time, never a problem witha anything broken, etc. Really neat and tidy.
When I moved in , the appartment was completely reinnovated, so it is written in the expertise - '1ere habitation'. The expert was the same (that has been chosen by my proprietaire), and he did the final expertise at the end.
When the expert has been doing an expertise, he has shown the price list that he claimed was an official one. The prices were extermely high for anything. For example, an hour of the cleaning lady was calculated as € 25 per hour. At the end, based on extremely minor remarks, he has calculated the amount of € 700, operating that he calculated everything based on his offical list.
Rico, can you tell me please based on which article or law these prices can be controlled and regulated for the experts to use?

Second part of a story:
I gave my préavie 3 months in advance before moving out. However, I asked to move out 1 month before the preavie ends. The proprieataire seemed to approve it at first, but then almost forced me to move out in the first week of July (the whole month is paid of course) and has ordered an expert on the 13th day of the month. Under teh pressure of teh fact that I asked to move out one month in advance, I have signed the expertise yesterday, with wich I was not agree. Rico, is there any possibility to protest the decision of expertise; to do anything?

And the third question: does the black lists for proprietaire exist?
Thank you in advance for all the responses.

Panchito-9340 · #2 14-07-2010 09:25:20

I presume you have shared the costs of the expert with the landlord?

If this is the case, the expert represents equally the interests of both parts.

If you didn't agree with the expertise, why did you sign it?
I am afraid it is too late, now.

grmff · #3 14-07-2010 09:41:30

1. There is no "official price list"

2. If you signed, it's too late.

3. There is no blacklist for landlord, neither for tenants. It's unlawfull, unfortunatelly.

Leen · #4 14-07-2010 09:43:31

Panchito a écrit :

I presume you have shared the costs of the expert with the landlord?
If this is the case, the expert represents equally the interests of both parts.
If you didn't agree with the expertise, why did you sign it?
I am afraid it is too late, now.

Yes, we did share the costs of the expert. But an expert is chosen by him so they know each other very well..
I signed because I was pressed by both lanlord, (who's been telling me that i moved out 1 month before official preavie) and expert (who told me that should i disagree with the result of expertise , the other expert would cost more).
I had to pay a lot of money for clean , very well handled appartment. That's why I want to know which organisation regulated teh price lists of the experts, based on which the final costs of the things are calculated during an expertise...

Leen · #5 14-07-2010 09:45:16

grmff a écrit :

1. There is no "official price list"
2. If you signed, it's too late.
3. There is no blacklist for landlord, neither for tenants. It's unlawfull, unfortunatelly.

So you mean that they can put the price of cleaning lady as € 50 per hour and you have to accept it?? it's impossible!

Panchito-9340 · #6 14-07-2010 09:57:10

It was your right to take your own expert (and pay him the full price). But you didn't do it and now it too late.

Why have you not told him during the inspection that you find the hourly price for a cleaning leady too expensive? You had the right to reject this price before to sign.

In order to avoid this kind of situation when dealing with Expats who are not familiar with the Belgian rental laws, I always give a checklist to my tenants (that I got from a relocation agency) so they can be prepared to the exit house inspection.

Here is the checklist:
-The rented place should be given back in the exact state you got it (described in the initial house inspection report)
- It needs to be perfectly clean and in perfectly maintained
- Clean out the smoke extractor in the kitchen and all the grease filters need to be perfectly clean. Otherwise replace them before the exit house inspection
- Calc: use a good anticalc for all taps in the kitchen and bathroom including opening the tip of the faucet and cleaning the filter under it
- Light fixtures; make sure all the light fixtures are firmly on the wall and that all bulbs work (unless they were dead when you moved in)
- Rain gutters must be perfectly clean
- Check for scratches on the parquet floor and doors; repair them if any
- Vacuum and shampoo the carpets (it doesn’t matter if they were not shampooed when you entered. If the expert said they were clean and proper, you will need to clean them like that)
- Dirt smudges on the wall; you may be charged for painting the whole wall unless the painting is more than 9 years old, in which case it is fully amortized and you don’t have to repaint it. N.B you would still need to repair holes or clean the pencil writings of your children for instance.
- Check window and door handles and locks to make sure they work okay
- Wash the curtains if they belong to the landlord and keep the receipt
- Have the last maintenance reports for your boiler, heating system, water softener, alarm, chimney (even if you didn’t use the fireplace)
- Make sure all appliances are clean and actually work if they belong to the landlord (dishwasher, dryer, washing machine, cooker, oven, microwave)
- Finally read your incoming “Etat des lieux” for those damages that were recorded when you entered and make sure they are not charged to you. All damages to the building's structure like wall cracks, leaking roof, damp, broken intercom, are the charge of the landlord but ONLY if you told him about. If you didn't, he could claim them from you.

Erico · #7 14-07-2010 10:40:52

à 25 euros de l'heure, je me fais femme de ménage demain !
moi un expert( pas très bon ) que j'avais engagé, avait compté au locataire sortant, 8 euros pour nettoyage du four, soit une heure !

Erico · #8 23-07-2010 21:40:07

Leen a écrit :

So you mean that they can put the price of cleaning lady as € 50 per hour and you have to accept it?? it's impossible!

You don't have to accept, but if you have signed, that means that you accept, you have to discuss before signing !

immorp · #9 24-07-2010 11:13:56

25 € de l'heure est un tarif tout à fait normal pour une firme de nettoyage officielle. Lorsqu'on fait un ELS, on applique pas le prix d'une femme de ménage payée en noir..

Erico · #10 24-07-2010 11:17:16

ça veut bien dire que l'expert que j'avais appélé n'était pas très bon !

je ne l'ai d'ailleurs plus repris ensuite

25 € ça me semble beaucoup quand même

Panchito-9340 · #11 24-07-2010 11:26:15

Peut-être, mais si Leen a signé le rapport d'expertise, c'est parce qu'elle était parfaitement d'accord avec ce rapport dans son intégralité!

Sinon elle n'aurait pas signé ou aurait négocié le prix AVANT de signer!

Erico · #12 24-07-2010 12:07:23

ou qu'elle n'a pas été très attentive

Francis · #13 24-07-2010 18:17:11

25 €/h pour un nettoyage "one shot", c'est très normal.
Il m'arrive parfois de compter moins pour des biens à bas loyer, reçus à l'entrée pas trop propre, ou dont je sais que le propriétaire est très social et peu apre au gain !

Qu'est-ce qu'un tarif officiel? Si vous allez chez votre garagiste vous verrez un tarif de prestation de service pour les différents entretiens, réparations, etc. Chez votre dentiste aussi (quoique ?)
Il existe aussi des "tarifs officiels" pour calculer les dégâts locatifs et qui sont établis par les associations de géomètres, d'experts. Ce sont des prix du marché par des firmes déclarées. Les experts nuancent parfois leur estimation suivant différents critères mais ces prix sont une bonne base d'estimation. Evidemment si l'on compare ces prix avec le coût du travail fait soi-même, on trouve une différence importante.

Pour le nettoyage, on me répond souvent que les titres services ne coutent que 8,50€ et que je n'ai pas à appliquer un tarif à 20 ou 25 H de l'heure. On oublie souvent que ces 8,50€ ne représentent pas le coût total et que l'état y ajoute bien plus.

Pour ce qui est de l'indemnité totale, on (les experts) considère souvent que si elle est inférieure au loyer mensuel, le locataire a occupé le bien très correctement.

Panchito-9340 · #14 24-07-2010 19:54:08

Morale de l'histoire: il vaut toujours mieux rendre un bien parfaitement propre et entretenu.

Ce n'est quand même pas la mer à boire que de nettoyer son appartement avant l'état des lieuxde sortie, non? En plus cela évite toute discussion de ce type, puisque tout est parfaitement propre...

Erico · #15 25-07-2010 17:02:30

C'est aussi une question de fierté Panchito,j'ai été locataire, et quand j'ai rendu le bien,j'aurais été honteux, si je ne l'avais pas rendu propre et bien entretenu : habitation et jardin

C'est un minimum non ?

De plus quand un bien est vide, c'est tellement facile à nettoyer.....surtout si il a été bien entretenu

Le bien en question, le proprio l'a reconnu, je l'ai rendu plus propre qu'à mon arrivée !

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