Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

panchito · #1 05-09-2012 13:27:39

Verbal agreements are only wind and can never be produced in front of a Judge. The Judge takes a decision only based on written proofs.

(1) They didn't leave me a forwarding address (had to find that from thier conciliation request)

It is their right (Privacy laws)

I have registered letter proof showing their absurd payment record, delay in paying rent or common charges. They were not dependable and stick to their commitments as per contract in term s of paying rent or common charges in time

But you never filed a request to the Judge with this problem, insn't?
So you have finally accepted the situation and kept your dear tenants.

WSP · #2 05-09-2012 11:29:21

Thank You Panchito & Grmff,

That was the statement my tenants told me hwne they wanted me to unblock rental guarentee early in July, when acounting was not done yet, agreeing to pay expert damage fee 54 euro":

"Rental guarantee should not be linked to common charge settlement.
They also said they needed money to lease anew apartment"

But as, a landlord, I was not sure if I would ever be able to pursue after them for pending arrears without something in my hand. The only hold for me was rental guarantee, especially they didn't even leave a forwarding address when they left. They even seem to fought with the expert for charging them 54 euros for not filling the 30 holes they made to put the curtains. Such kind of people are they.

I see no intention at all from them settling common charges, if I have released the guarantee

At the end of the day, They have to pay overdue charges of 800 euro and a bank account for 1650 euro needs to be released by me.

The points I have in my favor if they go to a lawyer/judge are:

(1) They didn't leave me a forwarding address (had to find that from thier conciliation request)
(2) I have registered letter proof showing their absurd payment record, delay in paying rent or common charges. They were not dependable and stick to their commitments as per contract in term s of paying rent or common charges in time

The only point which may be against me are

(a) I had to buy a palette of water softeners (40 bags) during their lease tenure. Reason to buy a palette of 40 bags was to let the delivery happen for an affordable price. In a sense, 20 bags or a palette costs the same for delivery. I am only a honorary syndic , doing it free of cost, saving all of sydnic fee, and I can't bring couple of bags every months for this small apartment complex. WE certainly have to buy and stock it to avoid the hassle of purchasing every month. Last similar purchase was couple of years ago by professional syndics. We can only account this when we purchase it and can not carry forward accounting every year until we exhaust the salt.

(b)Being landlord and syndic, We don't bring external gardeners and pay more than 500 euro for cutting fences like professional syndics did to us before. We bought equipment ourselves and we cut fences/mow the lawn ourselves.

But we also do spend some money once a while to plant some seasons plus perennials like wysteria, grapes, new fence (taxus Baccata)for the front garden etc) , to renovate the garden once we removed a bunch of dead bamboo plants.

I am worried they may dispute here saying it is landlord responsibilities., although we talked about this verbally during contract signing. They wanted to put a cap to 100 euros every year for garden maintenance but I didn't agree to it as it may go beyond if we need to cut overgrown trees at teh back garden.

So,yes, they may dispute to their part from 400 euro per person to say, 350 euro per person. This still can be sorted out amicably if they come for a meeting and not to jump every time opening a conciliation request or Copying a lawyer.

I have done my best and willing to listen and forego with some money fi I need to , provided if I could close this ASAP.

If they want to bring a lawyer to save 50 or 100 bucks for them, let them do

If I do anything wrong from landlord/sydnic perspective, please highlight to me

panchito · #3 05-09-2012 08:02:56

However some lawyers requires to unlock the "inconstestablement dû" in front of the Judge.

They don't care if some banks accept that or not...

WSP · #4 04-09-2012 21:25:35

Grmff!

Got it. I had that concern too. While providing appointments to unblock guarantee, I will specify following condition

Please be aware I won’t be able to unblock rental guarantee if overdue common charges and damage charges specified by expert are not settled.

grmff · #5 04-09-2012 21:16:05

Else, will unblock the rest of guarantee minus pending charges and damage charges as confirmed by expert

Usually, banks don't allow partial unblocking.

And partial unblocking is not a good option: once they have nothing tho gain, why should they help you in any way?

In French: "Tant qu'il n'y a pas d'accord sur tout, il n'y a d'accord sur rien"

(Till there is no agreement on everything, there is no agreement on anything)

WSP · #6 04-09-2012 20:17:35

Thank you folks.

Hope to sort it out soon. Also clarifying with them what they disagree and what exact documents they want.

sub:Demande de justificatifs
Suite à votre courrier recommandé concernant le décompte de frais, nous vous informons que nous contestons les montants repris et vous demandons de nous envoyer au plus vite tous les justificatifs des frais détaillés dans ce courrier.
Bien à vous,

Will send revised and final bill once I receive their side of story.Will reiterate again I am available on so and so data to unblock guarantee provided common charges and amounts due to me as written by expert are settled.

Else, will unblock the rest of guarantee minus pending charges and damage charges as confirmed by expert

grmff · #7 04-09-2012 19:07:51

I agree with Panchito

panchito · #8 04-09-2012 11:02:43

Since they stayed only 10 months, you just need to invoice them the annual costs (service charge, maintenance, etc...) x 10/12.

WSP · #9 04-09-2012 10:38:36

Wonderful folks,

I need further help to close on this one. As a syndic, I have given accounting as per act de base and accounting practice done by professional syndics so far.

As a new landlord, there are certain things I do not know how to deal with it.
For instance, my tenant stayed with me for only 10 months in the last financial year.That brings question how to split some common costs.

While signing the Lease Contract we clarified to tenant how accounting works and he has signed the folloiwng in the contract

En l'absence de compteur de passage pour l'eau de ville, le Preneur interviendra pour .....412/1000............... dans les frais de consommation.
De même, en cas d'installation de chauffage et de distribution d'eau chaude collectifs, avec absence de compteurs particuliers, le Preneur interviendra pour .............412/1000...............dans les frais de chauffage et pour .................................. dans les frais de distribution d'eau chaude.
Provision /(forfait stricken off here) pour charges communes : ........85...........................................
Provision / forfait pour autres consommations : ..........................................................

[chauffage]
There is no problem with chaffauge as we switched on heating on in November when tenant was already there. We switched of heating system before the teant left.
ISTA was anyway taking Calorimeter readings and it is purely based on consumption. SO, there is no issue splitting the costs here. It is simply based on consumption as detailed by ISTA

[common electricity cost]
(1) If common electricty cost is 120 euro(412/1000 of total cost) for whole financial year ,(say 10 euro per month for their apartment), since the tenant only stayed for 10 months, should I charge 100 euro for 10 months and I bear the 20 euro as landlord?

[water cost]
There is no passage meter, no way to practically find actual consumtion. We have been splitting water cost by quotite part for 30 years now.

This has been clarified to tenant on signing the contract and he has signed that he will pay 412/1000 parts as quote part as contract clause cited above

(2) Since there is no way to identify per apartment water consumption, should I simply charge tenants X amount as per quote part, no matter if they have lived for 10 months and not full year (the apartment was empty , nobody living for remaining two months)?

(3) For the sake o delivery by supplier, We always buy one palette of water softener tablets, say 40 bags once in two years. ONly half of tablets purchased will be used in a year. How to charge the teant now and how much I need to bear teh cost as landlord?

[miscellaneous cost]
There were miscellaneous costs like maintenance & purchasing plants etc for the common garden. We all cut the fencing ourselves, mow the small lawn ourselves etc and we don't normally bring external gardener. Although not in writing cited above on lease, we have verbally confirmed at the time of siging lease that tenant will pay 412/1000 of such costs for which he agreed to it.

(4) Now, since the tenant only stayed for for 10 months, if garden cost per year for their apartment is 120 euro(412/1000 of total cost), should I only charge 100 euro, cost for 10 months and bear the remaining 20 euro myself, as landlord?

grmff · #10 03-09-2012 18:09:28

Also, the "girl"always CCes her lawyer (friend?), this is not the first time.

Why do you care? I would not care about copy to whoever. It does not change anything: if she write to a lawyer, it doesn't change if you are right or wrong...

She just try to impress you (and apparently it works..) or to get reassured by the lawyer on the side.

WSP · #11 03-09-2012 11:23:45

Thank you Grmff and Pnachita,

So, don't write that you can unblock their warranty. You MUST explain the conditions.

While sending break-up of expenses/bill or if I have an option to confirm their appointment, I will make sure to explain conditions for unblocking the guarantee

Also, the "girl"always CCes her lawyer (friend?), this is not the first time.
Few months ago she did the same complaining teh noise of door open/close for whcih I didn't respond at all

Also, they had a deadline to pay outstanding charges by 31st. So no wonder they want to buy time on 30th asking for more info.

Thanks you all so much smile

grmff · #12 31-08-2012 21:25:26

Given the trouble you have to go to conciliation, I would not go. I would send a letter to the judge to explain the situation.

As for the letter you want to send to your tenants, I would link the unblocking to the fact that they agree to pay the extracharges.

I would certainly NEVER unblock the warranty before everything is solved. The guys in front are eager to get their money? They can get it by signing the final agreement and "solde de tout compte".

Otherwhise, you will never get your money with such zozo.

So, don't write that you can unblock their warranty. You MUST explain the conditions.

They have a lawyer? So what? It's only conciliation. And you don't show any bad faith.

PIM · #13 31-08-2012 09:10:56

panchito a écrit :

If they have a lawyer, take also one.
Never respond yourself to a lawyer!
If you don't know the Belgian laws on renting by heart, and don't have a good command of the official languages in Brussels-Capital (French-Dutch), it would be silly to go alone in front of any Judge.

panchito · #14 31-08-2012 08:49:34

If they have a lawyer, take also one.

Never respond yourself to a lawyer!

If you don't know the Belgian laws on renting by heart, and don't have a good command of the official languages in Brussels-Capital (French-Dutch), it would be silly to go alone in front of any Judge.

WSP · #15 31-08-2012 08:20:18

All your answers & time spent much appreciated.

# I will not complicate things

# I will not impose conditions. If they want break-up by email, I will provide one. If they ask for a scanned copy of all bills by email, I will provide one

# I do not think I am obliged to "reply all" to a Brussels lawyer who is in carbon copy, as I don't know him/her and do not a see a reason how they get engaged.(I inly know the other parti is a lawyer as per emailATsygmavocat.be)

# With respect to accounting sent, I did not mean one agrees to pay it. The "girl" accepted the letter. She is the one who is asking for break-up, CCing a lawyer.THis is not the first time she CCed a lawyer on email for any communication with me. The "boy" didn't accept the copy of the annual accounting yet tilldate, still awaiting pickup in bpost, do not know if one or both changed their address with commune as I still receive letters for them at our place.

# The communication we had so far was:
(1)The "girl" met me in July asking me to unblock rental guarantee. I said I will do so once accounting is settled. They said rental guarantee has noting to do with common charges and filing "conciliation request" the same day.
(2)I sent accounting mid-augsut
(3) I send a letter today giving them appointment to unblock gaurentee
(4) Would respond to them next week providing copy of bills by emails
(5) !!!I am a dilemma whether to for conciliation or Not!!!

#For the conciliation, I still hesitate to go in front of the judge for the simple reason that I do not speak any of the official languages. Their attitude changed recently that they want to speak to me in local language only. I do not how can i defend myself. Yes , tehr eis a solution, I need to find a translator. But going for consiliation, is it required now. The reason sought for concilation was :

Le proprietaire refuse de signer le document de deblockage de la garantie locative"

Here is the letter I *intend to send today* (end august), both in English and French (Google translate)

To :
Tenat 1@address1
Tenant 2@address2
CC:
Judge de paix
Sub: Unblocking your rental guarantee/ Le déblocage de votre garantie de loyer
• Justice de Paix Rep: by/Reg xxxx/yyyy
• Justice de Paix Ref: zzzzz, cocilaition dated <date>
I am afraid I would not be able to attend the counseling on September Xth at the office of the Justice de Paix, <commune>, as proposed by you.
As you know, I am working out of the country since 20xx and currently busy on a project. I see counseling with Justice de Paix only happens on Thursdays. I cannot be present in Belgium from Monday to Thursday unless I plan very well in advance.
To unblock your rental guarantee, I am available in Brussels on following dates and can meet you both at your bank. Can you confirm on which date/time specified below you both are available to meet me at your bank to unblock rental guarantee? Also specify the address of your bank for our meeting.
• 9 AM on 7th or 8th September (Friday or Saturday)
• 9 AM on 14th 0r 15th September, 2012 (Friday, Saturday)
• 9 AM on 21st or 22nd September, 2012 (Friday, Saturday)
In the meantime, I would be grateful if you could settle the common charges as per accounting bills sent to you both by the following registered letters dated 17th August 2012:
1. bpost registration # abcdefgh123456789900000000000000
2. bpost registration # abcdefgh123456789900000000000001

• If you have any questions with the billing for common charges, I am at your disposal at the building almost all weekends.
• If you would like to see the original invoices for common charges, they are available for your consulting in the building.

Honestly, I the reason they quoted for conciliation is not true. I only said I will sign once we settle the bill. Now that we have finished accounting & I have given them appointment to unblock the rental guarantee, I do not see a reason to jump through hoofs , be present for conciliation, which becomes ground for discussing expenses

So, in a way, the registered letetr I am sending today is the response to their written conciliation request which came from Justice de paix.

I will also respond to to email with break-up and scanned copy of bills.

[color=#0000E0]The last question I would like to get an answer before Justice de paix closes for today is:[/couleur]

[color=#A00000]Given the situation, what is the recommendation from you folks?

-Go for the conciliation and sort it out ( Need to bear consequences at work,
jumping middle of week from that country, associated travel expenses etc)
-Or just send registered letter above, give appointment for canceling guarentee as cited above and keep responding in each channel, letter to letter, email to email?
[/couleur]

[color=#0000C0]Based on your answer
(a) I will send the letter/inform justice de paix about cancelation of conciliation by today or
(b) simply don't send above letter and go for conciliation next week
[/couleur]

grmff · #16 30-08-2012 22:09:09

My only point is, they could bring their parent for signing the lease. Let them bring one more time to sort this out once for all. I want to be lenient, even give away a few euros as a landlord/tenant still report expense as it is, as a syndic. What they are fighting for is 400 euro per head, overdue. They have lawyer friends and want to deal everything via email cheaply whereas, as landlord, I have to cover myself with registered letter to both tenants, 12 euro per letter

Personnaly, if they refuse any agreement after the reception of the scan of the invoices, I would go further and go for the requête. 15 days, and no further hesitation...

As for the registered letter, I would reply to registered letter by registered letter. And to mail by mail. Remember that they are "Obligés solidairement et indivisiblement"

But you informed that one of them agree with the charges count. Ask him to sign that. It will help.

And again, if they owe you 800€ on the total, and the garantee is 1600€, ask them to meet at the bank to free the garantee and pay your extra expenses at the same time from the garantee account.

Giving them this appointment will finish the case.

grmff · #17 30-08-2012 22:01:56

(a)is it really necessary to scan 50 pages of invoices and email?

No obligation. But for good faith, it is good. 50 pages by mail with a scanner at 300ppp is not so heavy

(b) Did I interpret above link correctly (that giving them option to view original bill at building premises is more than sufficient) or do I still need to send a copy of all bills?

As a syndic, you should allow them to see the bills. Wathever the way you choose.

But I would play the fool and impose conditions irrelevant to your situation. You have a difficult planning? Don't impose extra conditions.

grmff · #18 30-08-2012 21:56:10

You have lots of questions....

(1) How can I send a bunch of invoices by post?

Scan them

-(2)In case if they want to file a standard requette, who bears this cost?

The loser bear the cost. If they use lawyer, they can add a standard lawsuit expense of 170€, but they have to pay their lawyer.

-(3) I have other reasons to become non-resident. If I become a non-resident,can they still open a standard requette with justice de paix with a person who is not residing in Belgium anymore?

No. But they can file a citation, which is much more expensive... for the looser

(4)-I am a Belgian. What other legal recourses can they take, say engaginga lawayer like what they do now, if I am a non-resident and living in a NON-EU country?

They can send citation (equivalent to requête, but sent by "huissier de justice" or equivalent) and it is really expensive.
Don't play this odd game...

WSP · #19 30-08-2012 21:26:58

If you have taken a good RC maybe you have also a "protection juridique" that can allow you to get a specialized lawyer for free.

I have "protection juridique" through an RC with KBC but I am not sure it will cover me(it may cover me landlord , not as syndic..

Also, I may only be able use in response to a lawyer notice. I may not be able initiate the process myself, engaging a lawyer.

I already approached my insurer a few months back that my tenant may sue me and will my "protection juridique" cover me but I didn't get response from the insurer.

I don't know what clauses they have . I can only deal with it when it comes to it.

My only point is, they could bring their parent for signing the lease. Let them bring one more time to sort this out once for all. I want to be lenient, even give away a few euros as a landlord/tenant still report expense as it is, as a syndic. What they are fighting for is 400 euro per head, overdue. They have lawyer friends and want to deal everything via email cheaply whereas, as landlord, I have to cover myself with registered letter to both tenants, 12 euro per letter sad

panchito · #20 30-08-2012 20:58:13

Since they have a lawyer, it would be better for you to have also yours.

As Syndic in Belgium, it was compulsory for you to cover your responsibilities through a RC insurance.

If you have taken a good RC maybe you have also a "protection juridique" that can allow you to get a specialized lawyer for free.

WSP · #21 29-08-2012 15:38:25

I happen to be a Belgian landlord and syndic for a small building with three apartments. I have signed a 9 years contract last year with them

The template I used for signing the contract was “contrat de bail de résidence principale pour un immeuble sis dans la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale
” <https://www.pim.be/telechargement/bail_principal_v2009_bruxelles.pdf>

As I wanted the apartment back for our own occupation, Our tenants vacated my apartment end of June, 10 months after their occupation.

They came back to me mid-July asking me to unblock rental guarantee held with the bank. I said I would do so once we settle the common charges. They claimed rental guarantee should not be held for settling common charges. The same day, they filed a counseling request withy Juge de Paix stating "landlord refusing to unblock rental guarantee" which is due for hearing next week

In the meantime, as the syndic, once I got accounting info from ISTA etc, I have sent a registered letter (this month Aug2012), with details of accounting(common charges) to both tenants. One of them accepted it while the other didn't. In that letter, I have clearly mentioned they have they possibility to see original invoices if they wish or meet me if they have any questions. I also gave them time until end of this month to pay overdue charges. So, I believe I have done everything legally required in terms finalizing building accounting for year 2011~2012.

They had the habit of not paying the rent or provisional common charges in time. They also didn't leave forwarding address when they left the apartment. The only way I could find their present address and send accounting info was by looking at address specified by them in their counseling request sent to me by Judge de Pax office.

Tenants Calling me for counseling is not the first time either, this is already second time, in their 10 months stay with us.Honestly, I won't get charges overdue if I unblock the rental guarantee.

Summary is,
# I need to unblock rental guarantee from bank for 1600 euro from both tenants.
# They need to pay us 800 euro due based on their usage/consumption during the time of their occupation.
# I only stated to them (also mentioned din my account statement) that they can approach me to unblock rental guarantee once they have paid overdue charges. They were given option to consult invoices at the building or approach me for any question on accounting

-(1) Do I need to go for counseling-(Not easy for me as I am working out of the country on such counseling days)? ( I know it is NOT obligatory, from my past experience with them)
-(2) Is it legally right that landlord doesn't unblock rental guarantee until tenants settle overdue common charges?
-(3)Is there any legal time limit I should unblock rental guarantee even if they don't pay outstanding charges?

By the way, the tenants are Belgians, around 25 years of age, one or or both unemployed. They were living together when they occupied but they have already split up and not living together anymore two months before they vacated the house

Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

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Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

Re : Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

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Tenants not paying common charges-Ask me unblock rental guarantee

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