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My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

WSP
Pimonaute assidu
Lieu : Brussels
Inscription : 15-09-2011
Messages : 83

My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice saying they challenge the accounting expenses submitted.

They were renting my apartment or 10 months and left teh apartment in June 2012 as I wanted the apartment for my own use.

Here is the copy of the letter from their lawyer:
Calling me to concilaition with justice de paix has already happended twoice but I couldn't go to any of them.
So, threatening by law is is not new for my young teants who study law and have lawyer friends at their disposal.

J’ai l’avantage de vous écrire en ma qualité de conseil de Madame X et de
Monsieur Y. Mes clients m’ont remis votre décompte de charges pour la période de leur
occupation.

Plusieurs remarques s’imposent.

1. En ce qui concerne les frais de chauffage, la société ISTA s’est basée sur les
compteurs relevés du temps du locataire précédent, et a compté une consommation
pour un compteur qui n’existe plus depuis lors (compteur 1496).

Cela ressort du document de relevé de compteur dressé par Ista le 29.05.2012 (annexe
1). La consommation afférente à ce compteur inexistant est la plus élevée, soit
36,40, et il convient de la supprimer.

Il y a donc lieu de ne retenir que 66,26 unités au lieu de 102,66 (soit 102,66 –
36,40), et de les multiplier par le prix unitaire. On parvient à un total de 650,95€
(66,26 x 8,94991460+57,93€) au lieu de 976,73€.
Il vous appartient de régler ce problème avec Ista, car leur seul interlocuteur
est le propriétaire, d’après ce qu’ils ont signalé à mes clients.

2.
En ce qui concerne la consommation d’eau, vous leur comptez la somme de 335,53€.

Mes clients souhaitent préalablement relever que vous leur avez indiqué qu’il n’y
avait qu’un seul compteur d’eau pour toute la maison, et que la répartition
devait se faire en fonction des quotes-parts. Or, mes clients ont appris grâce
à l’expert qui a fait l’état des lieux de sortie qu’ils avaient un compteur
privatif.

Ils auraient donc pu avoir un relevé exact, ce qui n’est pas possible en raison de
vos déclarations mensongères.

En outre, mes clients n’ont pas à supporter le coût d’un adoucisseur d’eau, pour
un montant de 305,18€. Il s’agit de frais décidés par le propriétaire, et qui
restent à sa charge.

Vous conviendrez par ailleurs qu’il est totalement abusif de réclamer à mes clients
une consommation d’eau pour 10 mois d’occupation sur base d’un prorata fixé en
fonction de la taille des appartements, alors que vous occupez votre
appartement à cinq personnes, dont trois enfants. Il va de soi que vous avez
consommé au minimum 2 fois plus d’eau que mes clients (bains, douches, machines
à laver le linge, machines à laver la vaisselle, etc.).

Le montant total pour l’eau, déduction faite de l’adoucisseur, est donc de 672,09€

Pour faire bref procès, mes clients seraient disposés à raisonner comme suit. Il
faut tenir compte des frais d’eau, et les répartir de la manière suivante : 4/7
à votre charge, 2/7 à leur charge, et 1/7 à charge du locataire du 2è étage,
qui était seul.

Mes clients devraient donc 192,02€ (soit 672,09€ x 2/7), à ramener sur 10 mois,
soit 160,01€.

3. En ce qui concerne le poste Misc, pour un montant de 166,45€ à charge de mes
clients, il se rapporte à des frais exposés pour l’achat de plantes, et a des
frais bancaires, pour un total de 484,80€. Une fois encore, il ne s’agit pas de
frais à faire supporter aux locataires, et ils sont donc contestés.

4. En ce qui concerne le poste courrier, pour 12,80€, il est contesté, mes clients
n’ayant pas à supporter vos frais d’envois recommandés, en outre totalement
inutiles alors que vous aviez leur adresse mail (moyen de communication
habituel entre vous), et que vous habitiez le même immeuble.
*         *          *
Pour conclure, mes clients marquent leur accord sur les montants suivants
uniquement :
-    650,95€ à titre de frais de chauffage ;
-    160,01€ à titre de frais d’eau ;
-    146,94 à titre de frais d’électricité ;
-    12,86€ de frais de chauffage pour le hall d’entrée ;

Cela fait un total de 970,76€, dont à déduire les provisions versées à concurrence
de 850€.

Il y a donc un arriéré de 120,76€, qui pourrait être déduit de la garantie locative.

Je vous remercie de me dire dès réception de la présente si nous pouvons en
terminer sur cette base, et signer la libération de la garantie locative ?
A défaut de réponse endéans la quinzaine, j’ai d’ores et déjà pour instruction de
lancer la procédure devant le juge de paix.

La présente vous est adressée sous toutes les réserves généralement quelconques de
fait  et ou de droit, et sans aucune reconnaissance préjudiciable.

Je vous prie d’agréer, Cher Monsieur, l’expression de mes sentiments distingués.

Lawyer

Although I am happy I was able to get rid of them, I see I already lost 3 months rent because of them, now I realize I have to loose another month rent as they unwilling to pay what they have consumed.

I am the offcial syndic of this building and I did this accounting based on what official syndics did before


Based on that , Here are my justifications for each point mentioned above

1. heating costs:
===========
ISTA takes meter reading around May every year. Tenat was in apartment snce Sep 20111 and quit June 2012. I gave them verbal option that they can call ISTA if theyw ant to take meter reading before thier occuptaion. They didn't do it. I also have a feeling they have thrown away ISTA calorimeter in one room and it is not me, ISTA who remarked on yer end reporting that

Bitubes        Chambr        1496    6.5    36.40==>Radiator supprime==> index minimum

When I asked ISTA what it means, they replied that "« Radiateur Supprimé » means that this specific heater (meter 1496) has been removed and can no longer be checked for consumption (as there isn’t any). However, the meter still does exist and a minimum index needs to be filled in in order for your bill to be correct."

IMHO, I did not remove that meter. I am suspect tenant removed it as they were probably consuming too much from that room.

(2) water consumption
==============
Expert who visited only for teh exist survey doens't know the issue with sub-meter in the buildings.

There are three private meters in teh building with three apartments but is not setup fully correctly.
-Sub-meter 0 deals with consumption for ground floor and front garden
-sub-meter 1 deals with water for two garages , first floor apartment and second floor apartment. One of teh garages belong to ground floor apartment
-sub-meter 2 is inside apartment 2 from second owner and he doesn't always lets people take measurement from them

So, all the professional syndics so far, has been dividing the water based on quotite part for many years. Tenant agreed to pay as per quotie part and signed contract (PIMS contract for 9 years Lease Contract

Questions:
(1) what I do-Should  I need to loose  this amount of 36 units in that room?
(2) do I need to loose cost for water they used/bth they did every day (although we have been accounting based on quotite part only so far)?
(3) water softner-WE buy one pallet of water softener, 40 bags for the ease of delivery/order as it is economical to pay 40 euro transport for one pallet
(3)Do I need to loose miscellaneous cost-This involves garden maintenance cost which has been shared between all apartments as per act de base.

(4) Should I hire a lawyer to respond, should I go to justice de paix? Or loose that 700 euro and have peace of mind as I have finally got rid of the pain at a cost?

I happen to be the syndic, do not have much time at my disposal. Have  a juridique protection insurance not sure they will cover me for dispute between landlord and syndic. I am alos in the process of acquiring an insurance for covering a non-professional syndic like me.
They owe me close 850 euro and rental guarantee for 1600 euro has not been released yet.

Not sure if it is worth spending a few 100 euros to get back 700 euros
(5) Given my situation, what are your thoughts folks?


WSP

Hors ligne

panchito
Pimonaute non modérable
Inscription : 20-06-2012
Messages : 5 782

Re : My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

You post problems with your tenants since months on this forum.
Since they have a laywer who helps them since the beginning, we have suggested to you to also take a lawyer, moreover if you are ab "expat" not knowing the Belgian laws by heart.

Plus as Syndic you are outlaw if you don't have a RC insurance.

Therefore I would say accept the proposal of the lawyer and register those 10 months as lessons learned if you want to remain Syndic and/or landlord in Belgium!

Hors ligne

WSP
Pimonaute assidu
Lieu : Brussels
Inscription : 15-09-2011
Messages : 83

Re : My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

Thanks Panchito


Plus as Syndic you are outlaw if you don't have a RC insurance.

I do have RC insurance as an individual. My agent told me there is another type of insurance for private people who happen to be (non-professional) syndics like me. I am chasing them to get me that insurance too

So, does your verdict change since i have an RC insurance as an individual but not  the insurance meant for non-professional syndics?


WSP

Hors ligne

panchito
Pimonaute non modérable
Inscription : 20-06-2012
Messages : 5 782

Re : My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

No!

As individual I have also a RC insurance.

If tomorrow I would be choosen as Syndic by all the co-owners, I would need immediately to take an RC Insurance dedicated to non-professional Syndic.

You have plenty of differrent RC's in Belgium:
- RC locative
- RC voiture
- RC Vie privée
- RC Syndic
etc,...

RC means simply Responsabilité Civile.

For example you have surely required in your rental contract that your tenants take a "RC locative"...

Hors ligne

WSP
Pimonaute assidu
Lieu : Brussels
Inscription : 15-09-2011
Messages : 83

Re : My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

Panchito,

I am agreeing to the proposal from the lawyer and intend to send a letter as follows:

I kunderstand we need to be brief and to the point to the lawer so wanted to get your esteemed opiion if the letter cited below will put me in further trouble.

Should I amke it still shiort and concise? Not answering to allegations etc?
I will of course translate this to French before sending

Dear Lawyer!

>En ce qui concerne les frais de chauffage, la société ISTA s’est basée sur les
compteurs relevés du temps du locataire précédent, et a compté une consommation
pour un compteur qui n’existe plus depuis lors (compteur 1496).

There was nobody living in that apartment since March 2011. The first occupant to live there
was your clients since September 2012.

Meter was not lost when ISTA took the reading in 2011. Meter was only lost after your tenat occupied.
In my opinion, your client conveninetly lost it and din't even report to me.

>Ils auraient donc pu avoir un relevé exact, ce qui n’est pas possible en raison de
vos déclarations mensongères.

There are two private meters, one for ground floor and one for first floor and second floor
and a meter in third floor. The water is both garages(ground floor and first floor) are
in private meter for floor II and Floor. Due to practical difficulties , our syndic never calculated the consumtion based on praivate meter.

It is not far to divide 2/7 for your tenants as they were the ones who were taking baths every day
and washing cars. I have recording to prove this. I was out of the country every week, retruning back for weekends
My children only took a shower once in three day. Our billing history can show that water bill for the building just became double only after your clients occupied the apartment

4. En ce qui concerne le poste courrier, pour 12,80€, il est contesté, mes clients
n’ayant pas à supporter vos frais d’envois recommandés

I can show you bunch of emails to which your clients never responded. Paying Rent or common charges also only happended if I politely reminded them by registered letter only

But the whoe purpose of this letter is not to prove who is right and who is wrong.
Conceding to the proposal also doesn't mean I have done anything wromg.
I am happy that your cleints are gone and do not have the time to deal with this anymore

(1) Please ask your tenants to pay:
- the proposed 120,76€ to account 363-5062466-76 (ACP Résidence Eglantines) towards pending charges and
54€ to account  , towards damage costs as advised by the expert on exist survey dated
1/7/2012 (proces-verball d'ea des lieux de sortir avec evaluation des degats locatifs
dated 1/7/2012)

(2)Please note I already proposed three dates to your clients in September to unblock the rental guarantee but your clienst did not respond.
I am busy currently and won't be able to meet your clients or go to a bank during a working day.

Since you are representing your clients, please send me the form to de-block the rental guarantee by post.
As letters sent to your clients are bouncing back, I will sign and send it back to you.


Thanking you
Dear Lawyer!

>En ce qui concerne les frais de chauffage, la société ISTA s’est basée sur les
compteurs relevés du temps du locataire précédent, et a compté une consommation
pour un compteur qui n’existe plus depuis lors (compteur 1496).

There was nobody living in that apartment since March 2011. The first occupant to live there
was your clients since September 2012.

Meter was not lost when ISTA took the reading in 2011. Meter was only lost after your tenat occupied.
In my opinion, your client conveninetly lost it and din't even report to me.

>Ils auraient donc pu avoir un relevé exact, ce qui n’est pas possible en raison de
vos déclarations mensongères.

There are two private meters, one for ground floor and one for first floor and second floor
and a meter in third floor. The water is both garages(ground floor and first floor) are
in private meter for floor II and Floor. Due to practical difficulties , our syndic never calculated the consumtion based on praivate meter.

It is not far to divide 2/7 for your tenants as they were the ones who were taking baths every day
and washing cars. I have recording to prove this. I was out of the country every week, retruning back for weekends
My children only took a shower once in three day. Our billing history can show that water bill for the building just became double only after your clients occupied the apartment

4. En ce qui concerne le poste courrier, pour 12,80€, il est contesté, mes clients
n’ayant pas à supporter vos frais d’envois recommandés

I can show you bunch of emails to which your clients never responded. Paying Rent or common charges also only happended if I politely reminded them by registered letter only

But the whoe purpose of this letter is not to prove who is right and who is wrong.
Conceding to the proposal also doesn't mean I have done anything wromg.
I am happy that your cleints are gone and do not have the time to deal with this anymore

(1) Please ask your tenants to pay:
- the proposed 120,76€ to account 363-5062466-76 (ACP Résidence Eglantines) towards pending charges and
54€ to account  , towards damage costs as advised by the expert on exist survey dated
1/7/2012 (proces-verball d'ea des lieux de sortir avec evaluation des degats locatifs
dated 1/7/2012)

(2)Please note I already proposed three dates to your clients in September to unblock the rental guarantee but your clienst did not respond.
I am busy currently and won't be able to meet your clients or go to a bank during a working day.

Since you are representing your clients, please send me the form to de-block the rental guarantee by post.
As letters sent to your clients are bouncing back, I will sign and send it back to you.


Thanking you
Dear Lawyer!

>En ce qui concerne les frais de chauffage, la société ISTA s’est basée sur les
compteurs relevés du temps du locataire précédent, et a compté une consommation
pour un compteur qui n’existe plus depuis lors (compteur 1496).

There was nobody living in that apartment since March 2011. The first occupant to live there
was your clients since September 2012.

Meter was not lost when ISTA took the reading in 2011. Meter was only lost after your tenat occupied.
In my opinion, your client conveninetly lost it and din't even report to me.

>Ils auraient donc pu avoir un relevé exact, ce qui n’est pas possible en raison de
vos déclarations mensongères.

There are two private meters, one for ground floor and one for first floor and second floor
and a meter in third floor. The water is both garages(ground floor and first floor) are
in private meter for floor II and Floor. Due to practical difficulties , our syndic never calculated the consumtion based on praivate meter.

It is not far to divide 2/7 for your tenants as they were the ones who were taking baths every day
and washing cars. I have recording to prove this. I was out of the country every week, retruning back for weekends
My children only took a shower once in three day. Our billing history can show that water bill for the building just became double only after your clients occupied the apartment

4. En ce qui concerne le poste courrier, pour 12,80€, il est contesté, mes clients
n’ayant pas à supporter vos frais d’envois recommandés

I can show you bunch of emails to which your clients never responded. Paying Rent or common charges also only happended if I politely reminded them by registered letter only

But the whoe purpose of this letter is not to prove who is right and who is wrong.
Conceding to the proposal also doesn't mean I have done anything wromg.
I am happy that your cleints are gone and do not have the time to deal with this anymore

(1) Please ask your tenants to pay:
- the proposed 120,76€ to account 363-5062466-76 (ACP Résidence Eglantines) towards pending charges and
54€ to account  , towards damage costs as advised by the expert on exist survey dated
1/7/2012 (proces-verball d'ea des lieux de sortir avec evaluation des degats locatifs
dated 1/7/2012)

(2)Please note I already proposed three dates to your clients in September to unblock the rental guarantee but your clienst did not respond.
I am busy currently and won't be able to meet your clients or go to a bank during a working day.

Since you are representing your clients, please send me the form to de-block the rental guarantee by post.
As letters sent to your clients are bouncing back, I will sign and send it back to you.


Thanking you

Dear Lawyer!

>En ce qui concerne les frais de chauffage, la société ISTA s’est basée sur les
compteurs relevés du temps du locataire précédent, et a compté une consommation
pour un compteur qui n’existe plus depuis lors (compteur 1496).

There was nobody living in that apartment since March 2011. The first occupant to live there
was your clients since September 2012.

Meter was not lost when ISTA took the reading in 2011. Meter was only lost after your tenat occupied.
In my opinion, your client conveninetly lost it and din't even report to me.

>Ils auraient donc pu avoir un relevé exact, ce qui n’est pas possible en raison de
vos déclarations mensongères.

There are two private meters, one for ground floor and one for first floor and second floor
and a meter in third floor. The water is both garages(ground floor and first floor) are
in private meter for floor II and Floor. Due to practical difficulties , our syndic never calculated the consumtion based on praivate meter.

It is not far to divide 2/7 for your tenants as they were the ones who were taking baths every day
and washing cars. I have recording to prove this. I was out of the country every week, retruning back for weekends
My children only took a shower once in three day. Our billing history can show that water bill for the building just became double only after your clients occupied the apartment

4. En ce qui concerne le poste courrier, pour 12,80€, il est contesté, mes clients
n’ayant pas à supporter vos frais d’envois recommandés

I can show you bunch of emails to which your clients never responded. Paying Rent or common charges also only happended if I politely reminded them by registered letter only

But the whoe purpose of this letter is not to prove who is right and who is wrong.
Conceding to the proposal also doesn't mean I have done anything wromg.
I am happy that your cleints are gone and do not have the time to deal with this anymore

(1) Please ask your tenants to pay:
- the proposed 120,76€ to account xxx towards pending charges and
54€ to account  , towards damage costs as advised by the expert on exist survey dated
1/7/2012 (proces-verball d'ea des lieux de sortir avec evaluation des degats locatifs
dated 1/7/2012)

(2)Please note I already proposed three dates to your clients in September to unblock the rental guarantee but your clienst did not respond.
I am busy currently and won't be able to meet your clients or go to a bank during a working day.

Since you are representing your clients, please send me the form to de-block the rental guarantee by post.
As letters sent to your clients are bouncing back, I will sign and send it back to you.


Thanking you


WSP

Hors ligne

WSP
Pimonaute assidu
Lieu : Brussels
Inscription : 15-09-2011
Messages : 83

Re : My ancient tenants have sent a lawyer notice

sorry.. cited text got copied many times sad
Please excuse me!


WSP

Hors ligne

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