Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

grmff · #1 05-12-2018 20:04:11

Use the tab to get to the reply button when you use the reply to...

IBS · #2 05-12-2018 19:48:12

Hi GT,

The problem was not with you but with m; It sia technical problem. I tried several browsers but I could not reply to individual thread/question, for example GT aor Panchito. If I try that, respond button greyed out in the browser. Only "response rapide' works. So copied your thread raw and replied, messing up the thread order. Please bear with me.

panchito · #3 05-12-2018 10:00:24

It is very clear that she tries to misuse your lack of knowledge towards the Belgian laws on renting and your misunderstanding of the excellent PIM's contract...

Bim · #4 05-12-2018 09:46:03

Himura a écrit :

This is an important news (pity you didn't mention it earlier though).
You're entitled to request from the ex-partner to pay the rent, along with his ex.
Of course, you must not send a temination letter. Yours tenants do not fulfill their obligations, the woman confirmed it clearly to you, and you can consider it as a breach in the contract.
I just can repeat the action way previously mentionned :
- send a letter demanding that all tenants (in solidarity with each other) comply with the contract, especially the rent payment and on time
- give them a last month to regularize
- use her words, when she said she couldn't afford this level of rent, for warning her again
- then you have to warn about the real will to go to justice in case of unregularized and unregular situation.

I totally agree with Himura. Both this woman and her partner are consolidated for the rent payment. If she can't pay the rent alone, it's on your right to require the payment from her partner. You may also argue that if the case is brought to court, the judge can require a seizure from the partner's salary for the rent payment. I think this woman want to rip you off with her demand of a terminaison letter, maybe for having money for a trip to USA...

Himura · #5 05-12-2018 09:29:21

rshanmug a écrit :

Based on having salaried partner with her, she requested to renew again, as her partner also signed the last renewal together. As there was a salaried partner, I renewed for the 4th time, PIM contract "modèle de contrat de bail - residence principale Bruxelles, 2014v4", clearly mentioning the start date of contract as 1/x/2012 and end date as 30/x-1/2021, with index date from the month of August 2012.
Tenant keeps insisting I should send her termination letter notice for six months but I prefer to not do that for the above reason
But this is the last trump card I have, which I will use if really necessary.
After staying for a year or so, her partner left the building:
She insisted I should remove her partner from the last renewed contract but I didn't agree to do it.
In a sense, last renewal contract is with both names, well employed salaried partner plus her.
The only reason to go beyond 3 years for the 4th renewal was I was convinced there is a salaried partner with a stable job so I should not worry for the rent. I was mistaken. Both of them cheated me by not paying one month rent for almost a year while they still could make a trip to the US
With this situation, what are my options here?

This is an important news (pity you didn't mention it earlier though).

You're entitled to request from the ex-partner to pay the rent, along with his ex.

Of course, you must not send a temination letter. Yours tenants do not fulfill their obligations, the woman confirmed it clearly to you, and you can consider it as a breach in the contract.

I just can repeat the action way previously mentionned :
- send a letter demanding that all tenants (in solidarity with each other) comply with the contract, especially the rent payment and on time
- give them a last month to regularize
- use her words, when she said she couldn't afford this level of rent, for warning her again
- then you have to warn about the real will to go to justice in case of unregularized and unregular situation.

panchito · #6 05-12-2018 09:18:50

After staying for a year or so, her partner left the building:
She insisted I should remove her partner from the last renewed contract but I didn't agree to do it.
In a sense, last renewal contract is with both names, well employed salaried partner plus her.

If you have a PIM contract, then you have an extremely important clause: "de manière solidaire et indivisible" which means that the partner is still fully responsible to fulfill all the contractual obligations.

Have you contacted him everytime the rent was paid too late?

Dernière modification par panchito (05-12-2018 09:19:31)

rshanmug

panchito · #7 05-12-2018 09:09:15

But the tenant never ever paid on 5th of any month. I am trying my level best to increase the pressure.

So since the beginning you have allowed her to borrow you the money of the rent for free? That's unbelievable. Some landlords have not only the PIM's clause about the1% interest per month but also another clause of a 25€ penalty as soon the rent is not paid on date and time to cover the inconvenience (you have to write a sms, or an email, you are maybe not able to reimburse your mortgage in time etc...

I am wondering, that before giving her the keys, you have not asked the proof that the rent will be paid by standing order!

She also insists that I should send registered post for any communication

Have you both negotiated BEFORE signing the contract to add this clause in the contract? If no, sorry but communication only via registered letter is not a valid option.

In my contract I have a clause stating that if I need to send a registered letter for any reason, I can bill my tenant with 50€ (for the cost of the registered letter, for going to the post office, to take 1/2 off etc...)

Dernière modification par panchito (05-12-2018 09:12:46)

PIM · #8 05-12-2018 09:00:17

We made a mistake here, without understanding how the PIM contract works. We assumed we need to sign a new contract for every renewal.

PIM contract works... as the law.

GT · #9 05-12-2018 08:58:55

Mon intervention malheureuse - où avais-je la tête à ce moment - de ce 4/12 à 16:52:43 a été modifiée.

libra · #10 05-12-2018 06:15:12

Je crois qu'on est clairement dans un contrat qui a débuté le 1/x/2012. Il faudra donc patienter 2021.

Par ailleurs, je crains que le locataire tente de vous piéger afin de pouvoir réclamer une indemnité de résolution fautive. Il y a donc lieu d'être extrêmement prudent.

GT, PIM, rshanmug

IBS · #11 05-12-2018 00:55:54

GT a écrit :

rshanmug a écrit :
If you look into her message posted, she has no intention of sending a termination notice herself. She also states she will stay until July. She also notifies she may not be able to pay my rent . Should I go to the Judge de paix myself? Or Should I send the termination myself, quoting the reason she is unable to pay?
@GT,
The apartment is in Brussels capital region so I believe it follows laws of Brussels capital region.
The contract signed was based on template from PIM
bail de résidence principale pour un immeuble sis dans la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale (2014v4)
The contract was signed in French. If we need to raise it with the Judge, We will make a plea with the Judge in French.

A quelle date exacte a pris cours de le bail de résidence principale ? Je reviens sur cette question.
La réponse se trouve dans le bail établi en 2012 entre les parties (et non ds le modèle de bail type de Pim, version 2014.)
Cette date détermine la date de fin de bail, précédée obligatoirement d'un congé donné par l'une ou l'autre des parties.
A défaut , le bail est prorogé pour une durée de 3 ans.
Ainsi, si le bail est entré en vigueur le 1er juin 2012 ou , en 2012, avant, cette date vous êtes forclos (le congé doit être notifié 6 mois avant l'échéance) pour mettre fin à ce bail (conformément à l'aart.237, § 1er du CBL) qui sera alors prolongé de 3 ans.
Si le bail est entré en vigueur le 1er juillet 2012, ou, en 2012, après cette date, le congé de fin de bail peut encore être notifié de sorte qu'il ne sera pas prorogé pour une période de 3 ans.
Disposition légale : art.237, § 1er du Code bruxellois du logement
"Art. 237. - Principes
§ 1er. Tout bail visé à l'article 234 ou à l'article 235 est réputé conclu pour une durée de neuf ans.
Il prend fin à l'expiration d'une période de neuf années moyennant un congé notifié par l'une ou l'autre des parties au moins six mois avant l'échéance.
A défaut d'un congé notifié dans ce délai, le bail est prorogé chaque fois pour une durée de trois ans, aux mêmes conditions."
D'où mes questions : quelle est la date d'entrée en vigueur du bail ? Etes-vous encore en mesure de mettre fin au bail sur base de l'art.237,§ 1 du CBL ? Et le souhaitez-vous ?
Le bailleur peut aussi mettre fin au bail ds les conditions visées à l'art.237, § 2, 3 et 4 du même code et à des époques bien définies, soit à tout moment pour occupation personnelles ou par des proches (art.237, §2 ), soit à la fin du premier ou du deuxième triennat (art.237, § 3 et §4) pour gros travaux ou sans raison.
Le preneur pourra lui, mettre aussi fin au bail, à tout moment, moyennant un congé de trois mois.
Le fera-t-il ?
http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/eli/or … el#LNK0093

We made a mistake here, without understanding how the PIM contract works. We assumed we need to sign a new contract for every renewal.

First contract - signed on 8/9/2012 for a duration fo 12 months, based on PIM template from year 2009
Second contract - signed/renewed again on 29/9/2013 for a period of 9 months, by printing a new contract, based on PIM template from year 2009?
Third contract was renewed on 9/6/2014 for another 12 months, again based on PIM template from year 2009? This where we either of us should have terminated the contract but we didn't,
Based on having salaried partner with her, she requested to renew again, as her partner also signed the last renewal together. As there was a salaried partner, I renewed for the 4th time, PIM contract "modèle de contrat de bail - residence principale Bruxelles, 2014v4", clearly mentioning the start date of contract as 1/x/2012 and end date as 30/x-1/2021, with index date from the month of August 2012.

All these four contracts were registered every time. Every contract was printed new, signed new, as we did not know how to amend or extend an existing contract. sad

We have no major works to do so cannot evict the tenant on this condition
I may take this apartment for my family dwelling, but this may be expensive for me as we need to keep this occupied for next two years
I do not want to pay 18 months of rent as eviction fee as that would be too expensive for me. I only want her pay the rent, provide of proof of maintenance, tenant insurance etc, which she never does, despite having the specifc clause in the contract that she should provide this info every year

Tenant keeps insisting I should send her termination letter notice for six months but I prefer to not do that for the above reason sad

But this is the last trump card I have, which I will use if really necessary.

After staying for a year or so, her partner left the building:
She insisted I should remove her partner from the last renewed contract but I didn't agree to do it.
In a sense, last renewal contract is with both names, well employed salaried partner plus her.

The only reason to go beyond 3 years for the 4th renewal was I was convinced there is a salaried partner with a stable job so I should not worry for the rent. I was mistaken. Both of them cheated me by not paying one month rent for almost a year while they still could make a trip to the US sad

With this situation, what are my options here?

Dernière modification par IBS (05-12-2018 01:19:36)

IBS · #12 05-12-2018 00:20:30

panchito a écrit :

Moreover, I suppose that in order to maintain the pressure on your tenant, you have required the payment of the interests everytime the rent was paid too late?
If you have a PIM contract, you are allowed to require 1% per month as soon the rent is not paid on date and time.
So in your case, as soon the rent is not paid ont the 11th, you are entitled to bill her 8.15€.
Remember Einstein said: "Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world", since interests not paid on time produce their onw interest (see Excel formula).
I do hope for you, you dind't borrow her the money of the rent for free?
No bank is doing that, so why should you?

per contract, date to pay rent is 5th of every month. Last renewed contract is PIM contract "modèle de contrat de bail - residence principale Bruxelles, 2014v4".

But the tenant never ever paid on 5th of any month. I am trying my level best to increase the pressure. She also insists that I should send registered post for any communication

How long can I go back in time to request for interest for any delayed rent payment? 3 months? one year, say from January 2018?
Could I add the cost for a registered port of communicating the interest, to each partner in the contract (one of them left, leaving me his new address)?
Is there any PIM letter template in French to request for interest, for any delayed rent?
How the heck could I calculate the interest if she pays a monthly rent in three installments, at different dates?

Dernière modification par IBS (05-12-2018 01:09:40)

panchito · #13 04-12-2018 21:56:43

Moreover, I suppose that in order to maintain the pressure on your tenant, you have required the payment of the interests everytime the rent was paid too late?
If you have a PIM contract, you are allowed to require 1% per month as soon the rent is not paid on date and time.
So in your case, as soon the rent is not paid ont the 11th, you are entitled to bill her 8.15€.

Remember Einstein said: "Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world", since interests not paid on time produce their onw interest (see Excel formula).

I do hope for you, you dind't borrow her the money of the rent for free?

No bank is doing that, so why should you?

Dernière modification par panchito (04-12-2018 21:59:15)

rshanmug

grmff · #14 04-12-2018 17:18:18

I think rshanmug doesn't want to live in the appartment, make big works or pay a penalty.

Therefore, the only way is to push the tenant out by persuasion, fear of justice or justice itself...

He spoke of justice and the tenant didn't like it. It just means it was the right thing to do!
Each time you receive an amount, send a strong and stronger reminder...

rshanmug

GT · #15 04-12-2018 16:52:43

rshanmug a écrit :

If you look into her message posted, she has no intention of sending a termination notice herself. She also states she will stay until July. She also notifies she may not be able to pay my rent . Should I go to the Judge de paix myself? Or Should I send the termination myself, quoting the reason she is unable to pay?
@GT,
The apartment is in Brussels capital region so I believe it follows laws of Brussels capital region.
The contract signed was based on template from PIM
bail de résidence principale pour un immeuble sis dans la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale (2014v4)
The contract was signed in French. If we need to raise it with the Judge, We will make a plea with the Judge in French.

A quelle date exacte a pris cours de le bail de résidence principale ? Je reviens sur cette question.
La réponse se trouve dans le bail établi en 2012 entre les parties (et non ds le modèle de bail type de Pim, version 2014.)

LE TEXTE CI-DESSOUS EST SUPPRIME. LE BAIL DE 2012 DE 9 ANS PRENDRA FIN EN 2021 S'IL Y EST MIS FIN PAR L'UNE OU L'AUTRE PARTIE 6 MOIS AVANT SON ECHEANCE CONFORMEMENT A L'ART 237, § 1, CBL, SAUF EN CE QUI CONCERNE LE BAILLEUR DANS LES HYPOTHESES VISEES A L'ART. 237, § 2,3 OU 4 ET EN CE QUI CONCERNE LE PRENEUR A L'ART. 237, § 5.

Cette date détermine la date de fin de bail, précédée obligatoirement d'un congé donné par l'une ou l'autre des parties.
A défaut , le bail est prorogé pour une durée de 3 ans.
Ainsi, si le bail est entré en vigueur le 1er juin 2012 ou , en 2012, avant, cette date vous êtes forclos (le congé doit être notifié 6 mois avant l'échéance) pour mettre fin à ce bail (conformément à l'aart.237, § 1er du CBL) qui sera alors prolongé de 3 ans.
Si le bail est entré en vigueur le 1er juillet 2012, ou, en 2012, après cette date, le congé de fin de bail peut encore être notifié de sorte qu'il ne sera pas prorogé pour une période de 3 ans.

Disposition légale : art.237, § 1er du Code bruxellois du logement
"Art. 237. - Principes
§ 1er. Tout bail visé à l'article 234 ou à l'article 235 est réputé conclu pour une durée de neuf ans.
Il prend fin à l'expiration d'une période de neuf années moyennant un congé notifié par l'une ou l'autre des parties au moins six mois avant l'échéance.
A défaut d'un congé notifié dans ce délai, le bail est prorogé chaque fois pour une durée de trois ans, aux mêmes conditions."

D'où mes questions : quelle est la date d'entrée en vigueur du bail ? Etes-vous encore en mesure de mettre fin au bail sur base de l'art.237,§ 1 du CBL ? Et le souhaitez-vous ?

Le bailleur peut aussi mettre fin au bail ds les conditions visées à l'art.237, § 2, 3 et 4 du même code et à des époques bien définies, soit à tout moment pour occupation personnelles ou par des proches (art.237, §2 ), soit à la fin du premier ou du deuxième triennat (art.237, § 3 et §4) pour gros travaux ou sans raison.
Le preneur pourra lui, mettre aussi fin au bail, à tout moment, moyennant un congé de trois mois.

Le fera-t-il ?

http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/eli/or … el#LNK0093

Dernière modification par GT (05-12-2018 08:55:36)

grmff · #16 04-12-2018 16:06:07

Tant que le retard ne va pas plus loin, maintenez la pression avec rappels et décomptes. Mais inutile d'aller en justice.

Expliquez lui que le logement est au dessus de ses moyens et qu'elle ferait mieux de se barrer asap..

IBS · #17 04-12-2018 16:00:23

She paid part of November rent in two instalments, 415 euro on 20th November, 200 euro on 2nd December;
As of today, She still owes me 200 euro for November rent. Based on history, I do not think December rent will be on time as well.

Per contract, she is supposed to pay on 10th but she has never did that so far. She will send me a message that there will be delay in rent.
Here is the last message I have received, which started all this:

"Bonjour monsieur X/Madame Y,
Je vous demande de m'excuser pour les retards du loyer chaque mois. J'ai des problèmes avec mon travail à la commune ils ne me paye pas bien et en retard. Je suis à la recherche d'un autre travail. Donc je vous demande de la patience pour votre loyer. Si le problème continue, monsieur X peut m'envoyer une lettre recommandée pour rompre le bail et je peux déménager en juillet. C'est vrai que je ne sais pas plus payer un loyer de 815 tout les mois. Merci pour votre compréhension. Mrs.Z"

Himura · #18 04-12-2018 09:16:14

grmff a écrit :

How many month she owe you now?

This is the main question indeed.

Your tenant seems to forget that she's entitled to stay as long as she complies to the rules and contract.
And she's not anymore when the rent is not fully paid, (and on time)...

She argues you try to scare her with the justice, and it looks like she doesn't understand the reasons leading to it.
I would explain it quickly to her.

rshanmug

grmff · #19 04-12-2018 09:00:21

How many month she owe you now?

panchito · #20 04-12-2018 00:36:18

Unfortunately only tenants can break a 9 years contract when they want without giving any justification, not a landlord, at all!.

If you would break it, you could have to pay her a penalty up to 18 months of rent...

So, if you can't convince her to break her contract, you will need to pay a lawyer (at least 150€/hour VAT excluded) and bring that problem to the court. But if she has always paid the rent even with more than 30 days of delay, your chance that the Judge would break the contract is nearly equal to 0....

Or does she has a debt toward you right now?

Dernière modification par panchito (04-12-2018 00:37:29)

rshanmug

IBS · #21 03-12-2018 15:33:07

My tenant sent the following WhatsApp message today.

Bonjour monsieur X/Madame Y,
Je vous demande de m'excuser pour les retards du loyer chaque mois. J'ai des problèmes avec mon travail à la commune ils ne me paye pas bien et en retard. Je suis à la recherche d'un autre travail. Donc je vous demande de la patience pour votre loyer. Si le problème continue, monsieur X peut m'envoyer une lettre recommandée pour rompre le bail et je peux déménager en juillet. C'est vrai que je ne sais pas plus payer un loyer de 815 tout les mois. Merci pour votre compréhension. Mrs.Z

This concerns I am renting in Brussels capital region.

She paid November rent in two instalments, partially, still some money is pending. She has been living in our apartment since 2012, always had problems paying rent in time. She always pays the rent late, 10 to 30 days late , even after one year once.

I cannot let here live here for next 6 to 8 months without paying rent. She is a single woman, living with a 12 year old child, girl studying in a school nearby, woman probably supported by alimony payment from her boyfriend. Many times, grandmother of the child (mother of her ex boyfriend) paid the rent. The tenant signed a PIMS contract in 2012 and it is become a 9 year contract, registered with the authorities. She has a two months rental guarantee with the bank.

What should we do now?

Go to "Juge de paix"? Will they be sympathetic towards me?
Send a registered letter requesting for cancellation of bail as she is not paying the rent? In this case, can we give only two calendar months notice, requesting her to leave by February 2019?

Dernière modification par IBS (03-12-2018 16:38:50)

Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Re : Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

Tenant doesn't know if she would the pay the rent anymore

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